Talk:Final Atonement
Why for Kakarot/Goku? Before Vegeta sacrifices himself in the English dub, he states that he does this for Trunks and Bulma, and then "and yes...even for you, Kakarot". But why? I have 4 possible theories; which do you think is correct? 1. Goku is his arch-rival and basically the leader of the Z-fighters until his own sacrificial death against Cell. So after the statement that finally shows his family love, was saying for Goku too an implication that Vegeta is doing this also for all his allies (the Z-fighters) and just only using Goku/Kakarot's name, since he was both their previous leader and Vegeta's most respected rival? This theory does not have anything to do with Vegeta doing it because of "copying", in a way, Goku's own sacrificial death; it is merely about the theory's question of doing it for all his allies and just using their "leader"'s (Saiyan) name. 2. Or was this just because, although Vegeta is a prince and Goku is a "peasant", Goku is the only other remaining pure-blood Saiyan, and therefore more of his family, in a way, since they are from the same alien race? 3. Was this showing how, although now as a Z-fighter he tries to keep it under control and usually just appears pissed off/irritated, Vegeta still has a dark nature which seems to hide most of his emotions, except things like anger, shock, and of course arrogantly proud triumph, he is still able to let out other emotions, such as respect for Goku, loyalty to his allies (even if only to Goku instead of all the Z-fighters), and caring family love due to making sure the Earth is not destroyed by Buu since his family live on this planet, by willing to sacrifice himself even for his arch-rival? 4. Or was this not implying he sacrificed himself for all his allies and instead was merely showing respect to Goku before he died?Mistystar31 (talk) 18:50, July 19, 2015 (UTC) :I would probably go with number 3 out of all of them. I don't think number 1 would fit. I don't see Vegeta doing it "just because Goku did it". That doesn't seem like it would sit well with me. Number 2, maybe to a degree. Vegeta has been shown to not care about other Saiyan's other than himself for most of his life, but it gradually changed as he settled down on Earth and started a family. I don't think Vegeta solely mentioned Goku because he was a Saiyan. Number 3 makes the best sense to me. Vegeta, even though he has a hard exterior, still has those emotions of caring deep inside him, and he probably was able to understand these emotions and let them grow as time went on. He has respect for Goku since he's always been a rival for him, and in a way they can understand each other. Number 4, definitely not, Vegeta did love Bulma and Trunks as well. Even the people of the Earth, which is shown since he was allowed his body after death. Ripto (talk) 22:13, July 19, 2015 (UTC) ::Ripto, you are misunderstanding some of my theories, mainly #1 and #4. For #1, I didn't mean that Vegeta also sarcificed himself "just because Goku did it" with Cell; I just added in how Goku seemed to be the Z-fighters' leader before his own death. What I truly meant was if Vegeta's quote was implying Vegeta sacrificed himself in order to protect not just his family, but also all his previous allies of the Z-fighters, and simply used only Goku/Kakarot's name when he stated who else he was sacrificing himself for because Goku had been their "leader" and also his most respected rival. ::For #4, I know Vegeta does love Bulma and Trunks as well; he said "Bulma, Trunks, I do this for you", and so I was asking about, for all my theories, why he added in how he sacrificed himself for Goku as well with the following quote "and yes, even for you, Kakarot". It seems that his emotions for Earth and humans, just like in #3, he does care about them, mainly because he now and his family lives here. However, my question for the #4 theory was, since Vegeta didn't say "even for my allies" or "even for the other Z-fighters": "Was he showing respect only to Goku instead of the other fighters?" after showing his family love to Bulma and Trunks in his full, entire quote? ::Besides the family love, I think that his sacrifice includes Vegeta showing respect to Goku and possibly the other Z-fighters, which would therefore make it a combination of theories #3 along with #1 or, without the possible respect to his other allies, #4.Mistystar31 (talk) 04:16, July 20, 2015 (UTC) Obviously, Vegeta's love for his family played a major role in his decision to sacrifice himself, but also out of respect to Goku. Remember, Vegeta becoming a majin and forcing Goku into fighting with him is what led to Majin Buu waking up, and so he wanted to atone this mistake to Goku by destroying Buu on his own and, for once, protecting the planet he now considers his home. He wanted nothing more than to protect his family; he stated in GT that all he could think about was his son and he didn't care about his own well being because all that was important was that Trunks lived.User:Lilyxflower :Ah okay. I see what you're saying now. Hmm. Vegeta does respect Goku, but I don't think he was using his name "bundled" with the Z-Fighters. I think he was mentioning the people in his life that are the most important to him. I don't believe the Z-Fighters meant much to Vegeta. He's more of a solo-fighter. Yes, for #4 I would feel comfortable saying that Vegeta was doing it mainly for Goku out of respect mentioning his name. He was never really close to any of the other Z-Fighters except maybe for Gohan (as he got upset when he was supposedly killed by Majin Buu). So when he said "even for you Kakarot", I would say he was exclusively directing it towards Goku alone. Not saying he hates the Z-Fighters, but they don't really affect him one way or the other. They're just kind of there to him if that makes sense. Vegeta doesn't "look up to them" or consider them rivals. He probably did have the Z-Fighters/allies in the back of his mind during his sacrifice, but I would be leaning more towards that he was remembering the important people in his life that made an impact more than anything before his death. I'll go back and add #4 to #3 on what I can see accurate :) What Lilyxflower said was pretty good too. Ripto (talk) 09:08, July 20, 2015 (UTC) :I agree with you, Ripto, and what seems to be Lilyxflower's choices, too, of a combination now of #3 and #4, instead of my previous combo of #3 and #1 more than with #4. Both of your paragraphs are quite good, with excellent points to support them. Yes, it was due to emotions of course of family love, and most likely respect to the (three) most important people to him, and caring for his current home planet of Earth and its human residents, therefore #3, along with #4 as well by mentioning in respect only Goku besides the other two most important people to him (his family), since he is Vegeta's only rival. Like you said, Vegeta might have had the other Z-fighters in the very back of his mind, but most likely only just directed the quote to Goku since he's an actual rival and Vegeta "notices him" instead of "just being there" like the others because of their/his rivalry. Lilyxflower's paragraph seemed accurate, too, except for "wanting nothing more than to protect his family", since she had put in another reason of how Vegeta also wanted to atone his mistake of becoming a majin to Goku by defeating Buu himself, which is another reason of respect only to Goku besides family (that I also agree with), with that quote of "even for you, Kakarot", and therefore another reason for #4. With both of your points in your views, I personally have decided as well that it's a combination of my theories #3 and #4.Mistystar31 (talk) 18:26, July 20, 2015 (UTC) This brings up another question, about Vegeta's soul's appearance in the Other World in a later episode--he no longer has the Majin symbol on his forehead. Although he was able to break out of any control (and he wasn't exactly being controlled by Babidi completely--hardly at all due to his huge pride and desire to fight Goku, which was also the only reason he became a majin at all because he would get the opportunity to fight him along with "all" his power restored, since he had supposedly lost some by "hiding" it along with his dark nature), he still had the insignia when alive and back to being "good", such as when hugging Trunks for the first time and also battling Buu in a previous episode. Is it because of his atonement, caring for the Earth in the 3rd theory, along with his family love and respect for them and his rival, Goku, (this rivalry respect both in the 3rd and 4th theories) and everything else that shows his emotional care in the 3rd theory, that no longer makes him a majin in death?Mistystar31 (talk) 20:26, July 20, 2015 (UTC) I always assumed that Vegeta would no longer be a majin once Babidi was dead. Once Babidi was dead, he no longer had the "M" on his forehead; his atonement likely had nothing to do with it. He was never under complete control because of his strong pride and desire to fight Goku, but he did regain a bit of his darkness. But that darkness was not enough to sever his love for his family (as much as he tried to denounce any emotions to his wife and son) or else he wouldn't have hugged Trunks and sacrificed himself to protect his family and the planet. Ironically, being a majin is supposed to bring out the evil in someone but instead Vegeta was more open about his affection for his family as a majin.User:Lilyxflower :I know why Vegeta wasn't truly controlled, because of his pride and highest desire to fight Goku (and finally win). I would have thought his atonement, along with not being under any control at all as he died in this atonement, would take away the M, but after Babidi dying is also a logical theory. We only see Vegeta come into the Other World though a few episodes later, after Babidi dies, so it does technically remain unknown. :It's kind of funny to think that bringing out Vegeta's darkness would actually make him realize his wrongs and eventually become the opposite (a better person) again, and as we both said, (me in theory #3), ironically bring out more emotions, including love, other than his usual anger.Mistystar31 (talk) 22:30, July 20, 2015 (UTC)